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05/24/2012 at 04:51PM PDT
Important Announcement! A planned system-wide upgrade will take place over the Memorial Day Weekend in the US (From Thurs, May 24, 2012 at 6 pm PDT thru Tues, May 29, 2012 at 5 am PDT). This includes QuickBooks, QuickBooks Payroll, Point of Sale, & Salesforce.com. This is only for US based products. This does not affect QuickBooks Online customers! During this time, you can shop, but can’t place orders online, activate products or update account info. We apologize for the inconvenience & thank you for patience while we improve our infrastructure to better serve you. International versions are unaffected. For more info, see our community discussion.
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mamano
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08/15/08 12:49pm PDT

Read this before you start your own practice - please

I am a proadvisor, a CPA, and have 20+ years of experience and a MS in Taxation.I want to share this with the community as an example of how icky having your own business can be. Right at this moment I would trade this business with any of your jobs. Honest.I began working for this QB client 8/07/07. Her books were a mess, never reconciled, never up to date, no credit card info in them, and every problem you could think of was in them. My bookkeeper took 40 hours to fix, and then this new client complained so much that I discounted. Her fee for a routine comp, bank rec, payroll and sales taxes was $100/month. I have to do comps according to the Statement of Standards for Accounting and Review Services.I have been trying for over a year now to (a) get paid (b) get her to sign one of Michelle Long's engagement letters ("What we will do, what we need from you).I explained that since she had paid ZERO in the last year, I really needed her to sign the engagement letter (which she demanded I produce by the way) and pay something toward her account, which now stands at $1807.86. This does not include tax work, since I will not release a tax return until paid for (this also caused a hissyfit).At any rate, besides being out a year's worth of bookkeeping wages, I share with you how just plain icky clients can be. And, until I asked for money, she was sweet as pie. What follows is the actual letter, redacted to preserve her precious confidenciality:Greetings Char:I received your email last week and truly have not had time to tend to that given health issues with my father, this kids and running my own business.While I understand your request to have my credit card, I'm quite frankly not comfortable with anyone having that. So either you take a check mailed to you or we keep the BillPay we're using and are a "slave" to its system. Your choice there.I will seek to review your agreement this week but do not guaruntee I will sign it until I'm convinced I'm actually getting what we need from it.If you cannot wait any longer, then do what you need to do.-- Reply:I can also offer you the option of direct bank draft, which acts like a check. I must also remind you that all applicable attorney fees and collection fees are the responsibility of the customer.----The last emailThreatening me, Char doesn't sit well with me ever. So stop doing it.Remember, we are the "buyer" enlisting your help. Our goal in obtaining a proposal/list of services you are to provide was so we could understand what you are supposed to be doing for us and our small company; and to determine if that's what we need.3/4ths of your standard services isn't even necessary for where we're at now or what we need.Again, no contract ever existed and still doesn't, we are presently reviewing it and comparing it to what and when you did provide us with actual service and when you didn't since -- we've basically been paying you on a "project" level or for services you provided cost on in advance and completed. These you have been paid for.What we are determining, since what you say you provide and what we've been "getting" don't match, what it is that we truly owe you -- as you're well aware, you have charged us for times or months we didn't utilize your services.We will then provide you with a figure and explanation along with an appropriate payment plan as done and indicated prior of what we can afford each month. It will then be your choice as to whether or not you can perform those duties and live with that payment. Again, don't ever accuse me or threaten me again. This is never the way to do business and most clearly NOT with me.----Maybe someone out there can explain how I can only clean up selected months?What do I cut out to meet her "needs?"Why she shouldn't have to pay when she is sick or busy?I am sorry this is long,but it serves as a reality check and I feel stupid for trying to help her.

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cmpeden
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08/16/08 3:13am PDT

So, why is it that you are still doing work for this person? From what I can read, she is trying to take advantage of you.

Thank you for posting this story. It will serve as a reminder to get an engagement letter signed before doing any work.

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08/16/08 4:48am PDT

I have clients like that sometimes too, although fewer now than in the past.


Each one is a lesson on how to avoid poor communication and unclear intentions. Unfortunately the fee for the course is sometimes higher than you would like.


That client is trying to claim the moral high ground, but of course that is unavailable for anyone who commits theft of services.


Scott

Scott Bonacker CPA
Springfield, MO

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08/16/08 6:01am PDT

I ran into the same thing with a client. I am going to start getting everything in writing before I start services. In this "new economy", I think engagement letters are more important now than ever.

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08/16/08 1:16pm PDT

I am also a CPA with 20+ years of experience. Here is my advice:

1. Hang in there. Don't let this one rotten apple spoil the whole bushel. We have a tendency to focus on the problems and let them crowd out the memories of all the clients that truly appreciate our services.

2. Remember you are not alone. We have all had these types of clients. Use this as a learning experience. I use engagement letters for everything -- even tax returns. Most CPA's do not. I have learned it is better to spell things out up front than have to deal with these types of situations. Engagement letters are not fool proof. They will not eliminate all of these types of problems but they do help minimize them by clarifying expectations.

3. Write off the debt and move on. While you can probably prevail and get a judgment against her it will not be worth your time and effort. Even if you get a judgment you will still have the problem of collecting the judgment. Use the time, effort and money you would have spent pursuing this debt to pursue new business that you will get paid for. In the long run you will be further ahead.

4. Finally, and maybe this should have been my first recommendation. FIRE THE CLIENT, TODAY! Simply write her a letter explaining to her that, on further analysis, you do not seem the ability to meet her needs and the AICPA Professional Code of Ethics prohibits you from doing further work in these sorts of situations. Also, explain you have decided not to pursue payment for any work already done and you will not be releasing any of the work product. If she needs the tax return you have already prepared then the cost will be $XXX payable at the time the tax return is delivered. Finally, wish her good luck with her business.

I hope this helps. Again, hang in there! Soon this client will be a distant memory.

Will

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08/16/08 1:20pm PDT

Thanks to all the brave souls who commented. Yes, this has happened to me before, and yes, every single time it does I cry about it. 99.98 % of the time anything and I mean even tax returns - are done under signed engagement letters. This gal was in such a pickle I gave her the engagement letter to sign and started work immediately.

What I DID DO that I am fairly happy about, however, is terminate her, using an AICPA approved client termination letter. Also, I wrote a quick email to her business banker who has asked for lender comfort letters on several occasions. I said "I am writing to let you know I terminated the client-CPA relationship with Mary AlphaHotel and she is not, to the best of my knowledge, represented by a CPA. I do not want you to make incorrect decisions based on incorrect or misleading information during any due dilligence process you may undertake."

I see in other forums people asking about getting liability insurance! After reading this,I hope they get a clue.

What is the general consensus about using the estimate feature in QB for every job, in addition to the engagement letter?

Once again, thank you all, I still feel hurt by the thievery of this client and embarassed that I believed her. But, if anyone understood, I knew you-all would.

Char Mano

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08/17/08 1:57pm PDT

I also ask for a retainer fee for all new clients with significant engagements. Depending on the situation it can be up to 50% of the estimated billing. By doing this I hope to only secure only "serious" clients.

Sorry this happened to you. Best of luck in the future.

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09/17/08 7:08pm PDT

Retainer fees! Yes!!! as we've found, they are essential. We don't have a formula, because it's often impossible to estimate at the beginning how much work will be involved. But $250 to $500 is not unreasonable if you can see a lot of work there. Second rule of thumb: do NOT get too far ahead of the client. We've got one with an outstanding balance of $650, and I'm doubting we'll ever get it. Then again, I doubt he'll ever get his (now way overdue) payroll reports from us. (We don't do payroll itself -- talk about a horrible business -- but we were giving him the numbers so he could do correct withholding). No pay, no play.

We do have a couple of clients we let get way behind. But that's because we know them well, and know they're good for it. A $2,700 check I got yesterday -- without a single bit of trouble -- reaffirmed that with one of my favorite clients (whose books were the biggest mess you ever did see). But if it's a new client, or someone we don't have tremendous confidence in, we just never let the bill climb too high.

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09/21/08 11:33pm PDT

I am so sorry to learn of your "problem" but like others here, I have experienced the same thing. I am a "one-person" business, so these really hurt. My "problem" was with a very prominate real estate developer, and I was stiffed for $2500. So now, like others, I get a retainer up front on new clients if there is a lot of work to be done, I don't know them, or a current "good" client recommends them. I just chalked "him" up to experience, and luckly have not had any problem since, not saying it won't happen tomorrow. When something like this happens, it does not make us stupid, just because we want to help. It makes US human.

Good Luck!

Judy

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09/23/08 8:58am PDT

Thank you for sharing your story with us. I just started part-time training small business owners and I also teach as a volunteer in a non-profit computer school. Whenever I have new clients that have confirmed training sessions, I always send them an engagement letter stating that at the end of the training, I expect to get paid in that way, I know that before I leave that office, I have a check in my hand.

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07/08/11 3:44pm PDT
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If we did not have idiot clients, we'd never know how to appreciate the good ones!  :)  Do not get discouraged by this client.  Clients also come to us so we can learn what NOT to do.  I, too, NEVER start a project without a SIGNED contract and my non-refundable SETUP fee.  Additionally, when I take on bookkeeping clients, my contracts have a START and END date.  This gives us the opportunity to determine whether or not we want to have a continuous relationship.  Typically, the period is one year.  Every year a new contract gets signed outlining the DOs/DON'Ts and WILLs/WON'Ts.

I also changed my payment acceptance methods - bank draft or credit card ONLY.  Payments are set up as recurring on a date that I allow the client to choose and they are locked into that date until the contract expires.  I have not had an issue since.  :)

-- A fool looks like  a genius to an idiot!

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